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20 dead Mozilla and Firefox products
Those are rookie numbers!
–A single Google product manager, probably
People talk about dead Google products, but a lot of them have just been superceded by other products.
Besides the 13 messaging platforms I’d say most of them haven’t.
A few, not a lot.
Honestly a number of these were abandoned for reasons that are fair enough.
Additionally, lots of these are open source and either have been or can be forked.
Many of these have public, archived repositories, differently from hundreds of dead Google projects.
Another day, more Mozilla FUD. I just saw the switched on Linux guy posted some too. They arent a perfect company, but lets not pretend they’re exactly like google or a mini google. It feels almost coordinated to get you to feel like all companies are compromised, so you should just use the popular thing and forget about privacy and security.
It feels almost coordinated to get you to feel like all companies are compromised, so you should just use the popular thing and forget about privacy and security.
People are criticizing Mozilla for the ads, tracking, and AI stuff. The stuff Google does. Criticizing Mozilla is not an endorsement of Google, in fact quite the opposite.
Their ad metrics thing is 100% private. Nobody, not even Mozilla, can tie the data back to you. Each data point is packaged separately (so that you can’t get all of it and easily work out who it is). Mozilla created an effective way to have genuinely privacy-respecting and metrics and they’re hated for it.
I don’t like ads, I use an adblock, but the internet runs on ads. Ads unfortunately have to exist if we still want all this online content, and if they do exist, they should be private.
With any hope, the likes of the EU will push for this over the kinds of ad systems that Google and Meta push.
As for the AI integration in Firefox - it runs locally and does stuff like offline translation (i.e not sending the contents of the page to Google translate), as well as enhanced screen reader functionality for blind people. Stop trying to equate it to the likes of ChatGPT.
the internet doesn’t run on ads. we were all fine before the megacorporations came in and started pushing ads down our throats for delivering the exact same services that already existed for free. it just so happens ads are more profitable, and with more profit, you have more ways to achieve exposure, which gives you more profit, ad infinitum.
point is, we’d be fine without ads.
Do you use any Firefox or chromium web browser, JavaScript, HTML5, CSS, or WASM because I’m 90% most of the development for all of that comes from Ad companies or companies funded by ads.
these techs existed long before web based ad companies. but, ad companies exist, so obviously they will contribute to the technologies they need to continue to exist. to do otherwise would be corporate suicide and it’s a stupid argument to pretend like we wouldn’t be fine without them just because they are putting their fingers in the cake. nothing was wrong with the older browsers; modern browsers are essentially just a war of proprietary rendering to try and kill competition bringing us back to the era of fucking internet explorer; which no one sane would want.
heck, firefox came to exist from netscape, so its basically ancient history at this point, and chromium (blink) is a fork off webkit which in turn is a fork of khtml from KDE (linux) konqueror browser - and as a matter of fact, khtml was discontinued just last year. i don’t see the relevance of ad companies when things have been fine and still are; without them.
but as we continue to abandon the practice of IT and todays kids grow up thinking google created the internet and all they know is how to touch the rainbow icon on their screens, the future is fucked.
I don’t disagree that there is a ton of development from volunteers and non profit (ngos, Universitys and governments) but the majority seems to be from big tech at the moment.
Just saying they are contributing a lot and in those ways the Internet is better for it.
What services were free and not ad supported that survived unlimited VC funds from the 90s?
The entitlement is real.
are you 12? it seems you have no experience or memory of a world before 2012. everything which is currently being controlled by a handful of companies like Meta or Google today existed in huge volumes before these snakes paid their way into global dominance. i.e. there were hundreds of big community websites long before facebook. there were several great search engines before google. there were several streaming sites before youtube. there were tons of chat applications before Messenger/WhatsApp. there were thousands of email services before gmail, hotmail, and yahoo created their “whitelist”, etc etc. Heck, Messenger (and google talk, etc) - all used XMPP originally, but isolated their network when it grew big enough to kill competition and force users onto their platform. we all USED to be able to use whatever client we wanted and still keep in touch with family and friends. we all USED to be able to run our own mail servers. we all USED to…
fuck it. why am I putting effort into this lol.
Which search engine was running without ads? Were any of those streaming sites paying content creators? Was your streaming site handing traffic for more than 10 users? What was your outgoing bandwidth bill from your ISP?
The exact same services? Did YouTube exist in the 1980s?
there were tons of video streaming sites around before youtube came around. i even ran one at the time.
And did you pay those people? How much money were they able to make off their artistic efforts?
People see AI and immediately think of ChatGPT. This is despite the fact that AI has been around far longer and does way more things including OCR and data mining. It’s never been AI that’s the problem, but rather certain uses of AI.
Ads unfortunately have to exist if we still want all this online content
I DON’T want all this online content. I’m not on instagram/facebook/tiktok/whatever two-word website/app the next generation will worship. I don’t tweet. I don’t follow influencers. The media I consume is mostly youtube, and even that’s been recently decreasing. The internet can die tomorrow and I won’t miss anything that ran on ads, the biggest impact would be that now I can’t buy things online so I’d need to physically purchase some items.
Fuck this version of the internet. If there’s ever a moment that adblockers stop fighting the good fight, I’m cutting costs and just not paying for internet anymore. It’s not worth it.
Ok. But that is just you personally, and the internet carers to far more than just you.
The media I consume is mostly youtube
Which is ad-based, even if you and I likely use ublock.
I won’t miss anything that ran on ads
You won’t miss any YouTube content? Really? There’s not a single YouTube channel you like? You won’t miss hundreds of news websites? Game mod websites? Sites with Old game archives? Etc etc.
Ok whatever, let’s assume that’s right. It still doesn’t change anything. You feeling that way doesn’t mean ads will no longer exist.
Ads will exist regardless of your feelings on the matter, because so much of the internet is reliant on it. With that in mind, surely you’d rather ads not be the privacy nightmare they are right now, no?
I feel like people are shitting on a real improvement to the way things currently are in order to fawn over a completely unrealistic change. In other words, letting perfect be the enemy of good.
It is not really FUD to point out that Mozilla wastes ungodly amounts of money on projects of dubious utility instead of investing it into their browser. Their current trajectory doesn’t inspire much confidence either. Mozilla started to waste even more money on ‘AI’ features nobody asked for.
Mozilla doesn’t exist to fund Firefox. Firefox exists to fund Mozilla. It’s been that since the very fucking beginning: Mozilla is a general internet charity that makes money with a browser. It’s always been that way. It never has been any different. I may have to repeat myself: The purpose of Mozilla isn’t to fund Firefox the purpose of Firefox is to be a money-maker for Mozilla’s charitable causes.
usually you invest in the main product to drive higher returns for diversifying. diversifying first means your baseline is unstable.
During the google money years the ROI on Firefox was so mind-bogglingly high it would’ve been insanity to drop it all into the browser: It couldn’t possibly have soaked up the sheer amount of resources.
Meanwhile, yes they did sink a large amount of resources into it in a way a profit-driven company never would have: They designed a whole fucking new programming language to get proper concurrency into the thing. Rust is, in a very real way, a language to write browsers in. That’s its purpose. And then they set the language free because, among other things, you can’t make money with it.
Sure, lots of those investments tanked. But OTOH you have stuff like pocket which makes money and could probably keep the lights on by itself. If everything but pocket were to fail Mozilla absolutely would have to downsize, would definitely have to scale back its charity spending, rely more on the FLOSS community to actually write code, but it’d continue with the same kind of force as say Blender, which wouldn’t be what it is without its paid staff (both coders and artists) and sidle-hustles (commercial support, training, and cloud services, mostly. Oh, t-shirts and mugs. Don’t forget t-shirts and mugs).
I guess overall the gripe I have with the “Mozilla should invest more in Firefox” chorus is that it implies “Do you want Mozilla to be way smaller and less capable of shaping the web than it currently is”. People have no sense of the scale of Mozilla, think that it’s running on donations etc.
wait, pocket makes money?
There’s a subscription if you want and they’re also earning some money off referrals. In 2022 they made ~80m dollars off all those side hustles, should probably be 100m by now. Selling the default search engine spot is still the biggest number, about 500m. And they have a piggy bank of over a billion.
man, i haven’t thought about pocket for like 10 years. i remember being annoyed that they added yet another binary blob to the software.
Actually, their new AI thing is actually useful: stays on-device, and summarizes web pages and videos.
But yes, they could stand to spend more money on the browser, and less on their CEO and other non-browser things.
Yeah. Offline translation (i.e. that doesn’t send data to Google to translate), better screen reader functionality for blind people? Sign me the fuck up.
People are just seeing “AI” and getting upset about it. Absolutely stupid.
Also they made llamafile We need a slur for the obnoxious and deluded anti ai people
I’ll be honest, when I first heard that Mozilla had come out with an AI I figured it was on the back of them trying a couple different ad scenarios, and assumed the worst. Pleasantly surprised by Orbit.
it’s a good idea to not look to deeply into the historic actions of the creator of llamafile. she’s pretty polarising.
Care to share some highlights?
she was the face of the occupy wall street movement, but her views back then were more ancap than anti capital. while working for google she tried to petition the us government to shut itself down and hand the reins over to the tech industry, with google’s ceo as president.
the base of the APE library that powers llamafile is called cosmopolitan libC, iirc in direct reference to the old soviet term.
to give credit she’s mellowed out a lot in recent years.
I don’t care who they are or what their Xitter history is.
The tools is great, the tool is not backdoored. I ruthlessly use effective tools that I can get my hands on.
Using open source software on its own does not even entails economic support for its creator.
llamafile is not really “effective”. it’s incredibly impressive, but it’s the opposite of effective. it’s a collection of a bunch of hacks reliant on coincidences in OS design, and works by basically recompiling itself on the fly to work with different architectures.
if you want effective, run llama.cpp compiled with actual optimizations for your platform.
By effective I mean, I downloaded one file, renamed it to .exe, ran it and now my shitty company laptop was running a basic LLM with actually lots of features, right then and there. I didn’t even have a GPU or admin privileges, and it just worked
Sure, maybe it’s possible to squeeze more performance out of a 3 years old laptop, but that was actually very usable out of the box. And I didn’t even need to unbox it !
We already have one. They’re called luddites. They’ve always existed, and will bemoan any new technological advancement.
Actually luddites were and are based. Neoluddites might be able to help artistes get unfucked by Disney & co
Enshittification isn’t an overnight thing, red flags are building and it’s important to call it out.
The Mozilla FUD where I said I like Firefox and pointed out how many of the projects continued in some form after Mozilla ended them?
You’re right, they aren’t google. Not for lack of trying though.
You see posts putting some shade over Mozilla, and your immediate reaction is “it feels almost coordinated”. Well, that may be. But it would be hard to distinguish a “coordinated attack” from a “that’s just the things they’re doing, and there’s report on it” article, no? Especially when most of it can be fact-checked.
In this particular case, those abandoned projects got picked up by other… sometimes. And sometimes not. But they were abandoned. There’s no denying that.
If you want some more hot water for Mozilla, since you’re talking about privacy and security, you’d be interested in their recent switch regarding these points. Sure, the PR is all about protecting privacy and users, but looking into the acts, the message is a bit more diluted. And there’s always a fair amount of people that are ready to do the opposite of what you claims; namely discarding all criticism because “Mozilla”, when the same criticism are totally fair play when talking about other big companies.
Being keen on maintaining user privacy, system security, and trust, is not the same as picking a “champion” and sticking to it until the end. Mozilla have been doing shady things for half a decade now, and they should not get a free pass because they’re still the lesser evil for now.
Seeing “the source is available here on GitHub”, “the project was forked and is now maintained as (other name)”, etc. after most of these really helps show the difference with Google. Well that and the length of the article, Google has far more deaths under their belt.
The loss of FirefoxOS was quite a shame at the time, but i can’t say i miss the rest. Servo, on the other hand, is all but dead. Cannot wait to see what the future holds for the project
I think Firefox OS could have a successful reboot today. JavaScript frameworks were not what they are now, and between react, vue, svelte, and angular, I think we are in a good place.
I feel electron and tauri have demonstrated how well JavaScript can be used for interface while allowing it to access system resources in a safe way.
Perhaps it should not be run by Mozilla, though, IMO they should focus on Firefox.
it did. it lives on as the proprietary KaiOS, used in cheap feature phones.
Servo isn’t dead it’s just on slow burn. Also, under the umbrella of the Linux Foundation Europe. As far as Mozilla is concerned it has served its purpose: Prototype stuff that then got included in Firefox to get rid of a quite large amount of technical debt.
The long and short of it is: Firefox is supposed to make money for Mozilla’s charitable causes. It’s not an end in itself, but a means to an end.
so you missed the huge amount of effort going into Servo recently?
A forgotten one is webassembly.studio, an in-browser IDE for creating WASM projects with way less pain than other methods. It got discontinued the year I needed it for my school project. It was open source but I failed to rehost it myself and public mirrors only appeared after I spent days trying to make Emscripten work, tore my hair out over WebGL and then finally painfully built the whole thing with CSS (and a bit of JS; yes, it was indeed a disaster).
Do you still use WASM? I’ve been exploring the space and wasn’t sure what the best tools are for developing in that space.
Nope. But I guess a mirror of WebAssembly Studio would still be the best starting point despite its slow development lately. The WAsm plugin for VSCodium was broken for me too.
Note that unlike JS, WASM won’t run from
file://URLs; you need to run a local http server or commit to an online repo to run your code. There might be anabout:configoption to change this but many IDEs (incl. WA Studio, presumably) come with servers for this reason.
I wonder if Mozilla would’ve benefitted if something like Hello was still around when the pandemic hit. Hello was a Firefox feature that made video chatting easy. You just needed to click the link.
At least they tried.
You mean they throw a lot of money at the wall hoping that something will stick?
That’s how it works, yes.
You spend money creating something, hoping the market will pick it up.
If you create a good product the market will pick it up, throwing cash at random projects and killing it when it doesn’t make huge profit sounds wasteful.
Committing resources to projects then keeping them/killing them depending on how they go really isn’t abnormal or a poor business practice, no matter how much you try to make it sound like one.
True, if you have extra money, …
It just ‘feel’ bad/wrong like now Google has a brand that they will quickly kill any project they start.
No, if you have any amount of money. Large or small.
Havingess money, if anything, presses you to kill projects more.
Imagine my disappointment when I realized “Firefox advance” wasn’t for the Gameboy advance :(
Twenty things Mozilla the company killed and they didn’t mention ITS OWN NAMESAKE APP. It’s didn’t ‘evolve’ into Firefox: they split the baby in half and cut away the connective tissue.
Seamonkey is still kinda alive.
I used the Notes quite a bit and thought it was a mistake to get rid of it. People pay for notes and tasks related sync services, so it could have been a revenue source. I also miss Firefox Panorama
I felt the firefox send death, used all the time to share quick files with friends, thankfully I discovered litterbox after they killed it.
There’s also https://send.vis.ee/
Panasonic created their own version of firefox tv to use for their tvs
